Curse

Aniewiel · Sep 19, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobalt

Did not know that, nor would even considered it a possibility as I have seen many people selling their accounts (some for obscene amounts) on Ebay so you would think it was a legit practice .

Just because it's on EBay doesn't make it legal.

EBay polices some things but they can't be all things to all sellers/buyers.

Sofonisba · Sep 19, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

As I understand it, even if you legitimately purchased the account on your end, once something is stolen it remains stolen.

When the Nazis confiscated artwork and later resold it/traded it for goods, museums, galleries, and private collectors today are now left holding the bag. In Europe it's slightly different, but once something is stolen in the U.S., it is always considered stolen (or in your case, perhaps just fraudulent) until it is restituted.

Savio · Sep 19, 2005, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron searle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

For those interested.

It basicly says that if you buy something its yours to sell or give away, and thats the Law.

But you cannot make copies or lease the game out, only sell it.

I think its the same for the EU as well.

Basicly the EULA is contrary to US law, in regards to re-sale. But they get around this by saying they sell a Licence to play the game and not ownership. This however does not (and has not) stand up in court.

You can resell a Guild Wars CD, I guess: that's fine with first-sale law. Heck, you can download the client for free; I don't think Anet cares about that. But the primary sale is of CD keys, which pretty much translates into memory storage on Anet's/NCSoft's servers. It *is* their servers, and they do have to maintain them. I guess it's akin to walking onto someone else's private property, you have to follow their rules while on it. It's not necessarily something that I like, but if someone says to not smoke near their house, I won't.

My-Excuse, I would recommend you also contact the credit card company, Visa, about this. They also tend to resolve payment problems; at least, better than the person who ripped you off. Contacting a scammer will usually get you nowhere.

Algren Cole · Sep 19, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by My-Excuse

the EULA also state that only people 18 or older can open an account. im guessing around 50+% of the people who installed and created accounts on Guild wars are under 18.

The only way I could even get my money back would be if a) the person agree'd to pay me back, or b) PlayNC contacted paypal about the matter.

ya..that over 18 crap is legal jargon to protect the creator...in this case it's in the EULA because the developer is about as dumb as a bag of rocks.

a) you've got a better shot at being the meat in the middle of a Carmen Electra Jessica Alba sandwich

b) you've got a better shot of a) actually coming true

Fantas: it's a good thing you aren't a lawyer...the license is not your property. The license is ArenaNets property. You're property is the CD, The Box, and The Manual....nothing else belongs to you.

Draygo Korvan · Sep 19, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Yep make sure you contact E-Bays fraud team and your own credit card companies fraud team. If payment hadnt been made yet your credit card company can pull it out so he doesnt get money for what he did. More than likely he purchased the product from a store than cancelled the credit payment so it wasnt a valid purchase in the first place.

Consider if you bought a stolen car. It isnt your car even though you paid for it. It belongs to someone else. What do you think the athorities should do? Return the car to the rightful owner or say 'ok you perchased the car go ahead and have it'. No the cops take the car because it is NOT yours, it will be your responsibility to charge the dealership to get them to pay you back for the fraudulant deal.

Also make sure you give them the lowest seller rating possible on Ebay =).

Pelias · Sep 19, 2005, 04:52 PM // 16:52

It means that ebay dude you bough GW from used stolen credit cards to get his copies. Rightful owner of CC filed a claim, claim passed and now you're not getting any more playing.

Similiar thin, albeit on much bigger scale happened in Poland a while ago: one guy sold over 100 copies of GW for 10$ a piece.
Inform eBay SafeHarbour team (they'll help, hell yeah:>), and if you paid for auction using CC not the sucky PayPal, inform your credit card company. There is a posibility you can get refund from PP, but expect a bumpy ride.

Loviatar · Sep 19, 2005, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

ya..that over 18 crap is legal jargon to protect the creator...in this case it's in the EULA because the developer is about as dumb as a bag of rocks.

Fantas: it's a good thing you aren't a lawyer...the license is not your property. The license is ArenaNets property. You're property is the CD, The Box, and The Manual....nothing else belongs to you.

first part NOPE

the 18 part is only for the part of online credit card purchases.

second part

absolutely true

Algren Cole · Sep 19, 2005, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

first part NOPE

the 18 part is only for the part of online credit card purchases.

second part

absolutely true

Federal Law carries coverage for the first part...which is why developers don't need to put it in the License Agreement...but developers don't know this so they do it anyway. What they are covering against by putting this into the EULA is already covered by a federal law that requires all purchasees using credit to be 18 years old. It's redundant...and thus they are as smart as a bag of bricks

Pelias · Sep 19, 2005, 05:09 PM // 17:09

In my country:
1. Clicking "OK" is not recognized as an electronic signature by law.
2. License is defined as a right to redistribute/modofy/etc - thanks for giving me your game A.net!

3. Any document legally binding customer must be written in my local language. - sorry me speak english not:>

Entire discussion about EULAs in mmorpgs is pointless. They're full of bullshit, but noone is rich and insane enough to sue an oversea company for 30 bucks.

dargon · Sep 19, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Actually, the 18 and over has nothing to do with the credit card purchase. The EULA is a contract, in Canada, and I assume also in the US, you can not legally agree to a contract if you are considered a minor, someone of legal age, in this case 18, must do the agreeing for you.

Algren Cole · Sep 19, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

Actually, the 18 and over has nothing to do with the credit card purchase. The EULA is a contract, in Canada, and I assume also in the US, you can not legally agree to a contract if you are considered a minor, someone of legal age, in this case 18, must do the agreeing for you.

Also controlled federally(atleast in the US)...thus no need for it in a EULA..License Agreements only need to state what is not covered by federal law.

kawaii_bat · Sep 19, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

If the guy you purchased you account from did not pay or obtain it legally and you account was delleted by Anet because of it.

**It is the person who sold it to you who has committed Fraud and it is not Anet's.**

Anet cannot reimburse you for stolen goods that where not purchased from them in the first place. Like other ppl said: It's like buying a stolen car, getting it confiscated by the authorities and then going back that car's company and asking for a reimbursment on a car you didn't buy from them.

The only thing you can do is Contact Ebay, Anet and Paypall (or your credit card company) and tell them about it so the guy doesn't do it to others again.

My-Excuse · Sep 19, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Let me re-fix my statement. I never meant to mean that ANet had commited fraud. When i mentioned fraud, i was talking solely about the person who had sold me the account.

Luckily i found out some more information. The person who had sold me this account bought it from a person on a private forum. The person on the private forum said that he had a 'few' keys laying around that were not in use.

Something tells me that Pelias's idea might be true in this situation.

funny thing is, I have gotten 3 e-mails back from the person who sold me the account, yet none from ANet who might have been scammed out of more than one guild wars account....

[edit- he has also agree'd to help me get information on this seller so that I can inform the proper authorities at Visa and paypal.

Algren Cole · Sep 19, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by My-Excuse

Let me re-fix my statement. I never meant to mean that ANet had commited fraud. When i mentioned fraud, i was talking solely about the person who had sold me the account.

Luckily i found out some more information. The person who had sold me this account bought it from a person on a private forum. The person on the private forum said that he had a 'few' keys laying around that were not in use.

Something tells me that Pelias's idea might be true in this situation.

funny thing is, I have gotten 3 e-mails back from the person who sold me the account, yet none from ANet who might have been scammed out of more than one guild wars account....

[edit- he has also agree'd to help me get information on this seller so that I can inform the proper authorities at Visa and paypal.

anet doesn't lose money....the credit card company still pays them the $50. They have no reason to care. Everyone totes Anet as being "the gamers big brother"...they don't give a damn about you or whether you get to play the game. They just want the $50...just like any other well run American Business. Kudos ArenaNet

KvanCetre · Sep 19, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

The same thing happened to me for my second account a few weeks ago. I realized my error and manned up and bought a legit key from NCSoft. Sure, I wasted an extra 30 dollars, but thats what you get when you try to buy from sources who magically have 15 keys for 30 dollars...

Loviatar · Sep 19, 2005, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

Also controlled federally(atleast in the US)...thus no need for it in a EULA..License Agreements only need to state what is not covered by federal law.

in the US (the lawsuit capitol of the world) there is a quaint term called CYA which applies

this is on the premise that most people are too lazy/stupid to actually be aware of the regulations and some enterprising ambulance chaser wont start a class action lawsuit because something wasnt spelled out.

i am waiting on the day you have to click *i understand and agree* to each and every line.

followed by a test of comprehension (well they might........

)

Aniewiel · Sep 19, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

LOL if comprehension checks ever happen, a huge percentage of gamers wouldn't pass.

Algren Cole · Sep 19, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

in the US (the lawsuit capitol of the world) there is a quaint term called CYA which applies

this is on the premise that most people are too lazy/stupid to actually be aware of the regulations and some enterprising ambulance chaser wont start a class action lawsuit because something wasnt spelled out.

i am waiting on the day you have to click *i understand and agree* to each and every line.

followed by a test of comprehension (well they might........

)

actually I can see where you are going now...and it makes a lot of sense

Aniewel: if by large percent you mean 99%...then I agree. Comprehension doesn't appear to be tops on the list for a lot of gamers.

Aniewiel · Sep 19, 2005, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

actually I can see where you are going now...and it makes a lot of sense

Aniewel: if by large percent you mean 99%...then I agree. Comprehension doesn't appear to be tops on the list for a lot of gamers.

As a teacher, it's not a high priority for a lot of people. In the day and age of instant gratification and the "skip" button on a lot of electronic agreements, it's no surprise that people just don't read through.

Having been caught in this trap with my medical insurance (believe me, READ EVERY WORD), I'll never get hit like that again. I don't care how long I have to sit there and how many times I have to reread things to be sure I adequately understand what I'm signing, I'll do it.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 19, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Although in pretty much all the world clicking "OK" does not constitute signing a legally binding contract.
I do know that the software firms have been lobbying mercilessly in Brussels for years to get the politicians to agree to this, though.
I'm a bit curious where Pelias is, since shrinkwraps/EULA's are apparently legally binding in his country.